00:04:43 --> 00:06:33

Heneage Mitchell: This is a trailer, that was a trailer for an upcoming documentary on Scope which was, at first Scope was held during the last COP, which we ran it from, for five days, 24 hours straight. I know several of you were involved in that. So why is it important that, oh look, do I need a microphone? Why is consumer advocacy important? I think it was pretty well covered in that, but let's talk about THR advocacy. Let's talk about how we can get our messages across to different diasporas, different groups, different demographics. Let's talk about how we can craft our message so it resonates, so that we can actually get out of our echo chamber and out into the real world and encourage and engage with people who may not have skin in the game, but who may have some particular leanings or whatever that we can use to draw them into our advocacy or at least listen to our message with an open mind. Nancy Lucas, who you all know, is currently somewhere over the Atlantic and is supposed to be standing right here, right now, helping me with this. But thank God we have Ruth Goldsmith here from GFN, who is going to take over Nancy's role. So please give it up for Ruth. And please remember, I handed her this like two minutes ago, so give her a break, OK?

00:06:33 --> 00:12:03

Ruth Goldsmith: OK. Shall I run through Nancy's? Sure. OK, cool. So hello, everyone. Thank you very much for allowing me to pretend to be Nancy for a little bit. It's life goals achieved. So we're talking about advocacy, and I'm going to run through the presentation that Nancy had prepared. So I have Nancy's words, you're getting Nancy's words, just not quite from Nancy. What she was going to lead on was regulators, communicating with regulators. So H is going to do some work in a bit to talk about communicating with media. which is actually where I'm probably most comfortable as well because my background is media and communications. But let's just have a think about communicating with regulators and how you can do that well. So, messaging. It's all about the message. How to tailor it and how to deliver it to your intended audience. So, this session will be focused on communication. which is vitally important, not just within the advocacy community, but also with those outside our bubble. If our communications are clear, concise, and messaging is focused, we can accomplish much more. When it comes to the message, Nancy argues, that we need to stay focused and all on the same page. In saying that, Every one of you here will operate within different environments, and so your approaches will inevitably be slightly different. Yet, if the message is consistent across all of the different areas in which you're working, then it will be much more powerful. Building the base is Nancy's next point. When we think about building the base of support, we must start with each other. We are much stronger together than as separate entities. I can hear Nancy saying that right now. Again, the principles of clarity, focus are important, but equally so are respect, consideration and support. This expands out to the general public and regulators with the same ethos. Looking at your audiences when you're dealing with regulators and the media, you need to understand their mindsets. Are they conservative? Are they liberal? Are they somewhere on the fence? You need to tailor your message within that construct so it can be received. In other words, you're making it relatable and you're making it relevant for them. And addressing regulators When we're building the base we must consider those who are not consumers but who are possible supporters. This includes the public as well as health experts, government officials and regulators. So one of the key points that Nancy has repeated a number of times is about clarity and respect and consideration and the ability to agree to disagree without getting a motive. So consumers, we all feel passion for the cause. I'm not speaking as a consumer, I'm speaking here with Nancy's voice, but we feel passion for the cause. Regulators have multiple areas of responsibility. So in order to grab their attention and incite their interest, you must make your arguments relevant to them. The best way to engage with regulators and officials is to operate from the viewpoint that elected officials work for you. Be a benevolent employer. I like that. But also have boundaries that they cannot cross. So in the end, if you have a meeting with them and they keep refusing you, try to meet with their staff, or go to the next in line, or find another equal civil servant in a different but relevant department. And then I think this is my favorite advice in the whole part from Nancy here. Consistency and persistence without being a jerk. Keep detailed records of all phone calls, dates, times and the people you've spoken with. As far as email communications, always get a send and read receipt. Save your copies. After multiple attempts at contact that are refused, you have the ammunition to prove that they're not working in your constituency's best interests. So there's lots of food for thought there in terms of getting that message tailored, getting that message clear and concise, and also within the sphere of the advocacy world, recognising your differences but also coming together around a common cause, and that's what ultimately is going to make messaging that bit more powerful. I'm going to hand back to H now. Thank you to Nancy for her words.

00:12:05 --> 00:14:48

Heneage Mitchell: Thank you so much, Ruth. Lifesaver. OK, so now that we've decided that there are issues that we can address, with or without feedback, is anybody here familiar with the MasterChef TV series? Anybody? Everybody? Pretty much everybody. OK. We're going to play a little game now. It's called THR Advocacy. Master Advocate, that's it. Something like that, whatever. We're going to use the same format. So what's going to happen now is that we are going to do a couple of things together. I'm basically going to not be talking much. So what we're going to do, we are going to produce two press statements, which we will do by whoever the representative of whichever group is selected to do it, will stand up and make a statement based on the fact that everybody else he's talking to is the media. So we're going to split you guys into two groups. And we're going to have one group be Republican or right or fascist, and we're going to have another group being socialist, or left-wing, or communist, or whatever color fits the community, the society from which you come. Because every single one of us comes from a different country, and we all have different dynamics and demographics to face. So this is about you thinking, what's going on in my constituency? How can I best use this information to leverage my message more effectively, wider, and louder? This is what we're here to do. So this is going to be a bit of a game. First thing we're going to do, if all of us are going to have a little discussion, what one message Do we want our press release to be about? So I'll give you five minutes to discuss. I'd like an open discussion. I'm going to write a few possible topics on the board. Actually, my writing is absolute rubbish. So thankfully, we have somebody who can actually write. Yeah. So I'm going to start off. I'm going to say kids. Yes sir?

00:14:48 --> 00:14:50

John Oyston: Free vapes for poor people.

00:14:50 --> 00:15:02

Heneage Mitchell: Free vapes for poor people. Anybody else? What's that? Vaping saves lives. Vaping saves lives. Anybody else? Lindsay?

00:15:02 --> 00:15:04

Lindsay Stroud: Screw the FDA.

00:15:04 --> 00:16:08

Heneage Mitchell: We'll just give that one a miss I think. If you said FCTC or WHO you might have had a lot of support there. Can we add flavours up there? Let's get one more. Sir. Yeah, regulation should be for us. Regulation should be for us. Okay, so shortly you'll have regulation should be for us written up there. You guys decide between you now, which one of these messages do you want to focus on for this press release? Take a vote. We can do a show of hands if you wish. But if you'd like to have a discussion about it? Nobody wants a discussion, fine. Okay, fine. So, all those who would like to see a press release on kids, hands up, please. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Seven. One person, one vote. You can only vote for one. Okay. Free vapes for poor people.

00:16:08 --> 00:16:12

Attendee: That's not the Republican way.

00:16:12 --> 00:22:39

Heneage Mitchell: Just stand by. Free vapes for four people, I'm sure there's one, one, no? You're pulling back on that one, okay, yeah. Vaping saves lives. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. One, two, three, four, One, two, three, are you holding two hands up there? Oh no, I'm sorry. One, two, three, four, five, six. Okay, that looks like seven to me. It's going to be Vaping Saves Lives. So, our message is gonna be Vaping Saves Lives. So the first thing that we need to do now is I'm going to ask everybody to identify themselves by region. Who's from Europe? Could all the Europeans please move over. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7. Hands up again, I'm really slow at counting, not good at maths. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6. Right. I want you to arbitrarily, between you, decide three people on one side and three people on the other side. So three of you here, three of you here. Go. OK, have we got three European? We haven't decided who's on what side yet, don't worry about it. We've got one, two, three over here. How many European? One, two... OK, I suggest you all sit together. Right. Who's from Asia? One, great, one, two, three, one, two, one, two, three, four, five, six, right. With the exception of Asa, who's helping me here, could you split yourselves into two groups, one on this side, one on the other? Okay, let's make this easy. Hands up again. You're on this side, you're on this side, who else? You're done. Stay where you are, Asia. Africa. One. You're going to have to cut yourself in half. Would you mind choosing one side or the other? But I'm going to ask you to do something a little different once you've chosen a side. Since you're sitting there, be on this side. Have I missed anywhere? Oh, yeah. North America, anybody? Yeah. Oh, my God! OK, once again, if we can have like... One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. Could you two just move over to that side for me, please? A little over... Have I missed anyone? Is anybody not assigned anywhere yet? Okay, there's four of you. There's four of you. Two here, two there. Absolutely. Okie dokie. I'm now going to arbitrarily assign this side to the left and this side to the right. So you are the fascist Republican right-wing anti-woke Yeah, remember these words, okay? You are the left-wing socialist communist woke. Cancel culture to other people. There's the line, ne'er the twain shall meet. Our message, which is vaping saves lives, sits here. We're all going to produce a press release about vaping saves lives. OK? So the first thing we're going to do is I will now distribute. Please elect a leader. Yes, Atakan. Right, OK. Please elect a leader. There you go. There you go. Right. So I will now share these forms with you, so you've got something to work with, and these forms with you, so you've got something to work with. Sorry. Here's a bunch of pens. Look at this. Good job. There's your salary today. Here's a bunch of pens. There you go. We've got more if you want them. Right, first thing we're going to do. Oh, I've given all the forms away. I don't know what we're doing now. OK, thank you. I'll just take that one. OK, we've chosen a message. So if you want to distribute the forms to the different countries or the different regions so that each region's got a form. OK. and then within the region, elect somebody who's going to write it down. Okay? Now, I suggest that all of you group in your regions. Huddle. Huddle. Huddle. That's the thing. Huddle. Huddle. Okay? Huddle in your regions and choose one message, write, vaping saves lives. Feel free to move the chairs around if that's convenient for you. I don't mind. Hello. Right, okay, now you're all huddled in your groups, more or less. The next thing we're going to do is we're going to choose three points to support your message.

00:22:39 --> 00:22:41

John Oyston: Now remember, you're on the liberal side of things, let's call it that.

00:22:57 --> 00:24:35

Heneage Mitchell: and you're on the conservative side of things. So what we need to do, you guys need to huddle in your respective groups and you need to come up with three points that would resonate in your case with conservatives and in your case with liberals, three points that would resonate with them, that would and you can couch this message into. Does everybody understand what I'm trying to achieve here? Yes? Does everybody understand what I'm trying to achieve here? This is why I've split you into groups, because you know in your respective countries how extreme or otherwise they are. You know, or should know, or should be able to figure out what the triggers are that would make a conservative guy go, It's bloody terrible. It's an outrage. Of course I support this. You need to come up with three messages that when you put them into your press release, the people go, well, that's absolutely outrageous. I should be banned immediately. We need to get these guys their vapes in their hands immediately. That's your job, to come up with three messages that will resonate with that left side of things in your constituency. So you're going to obviously get a bit of sharing like that. So now I'm going to stop talking and myself and Ruth will rotate amongst you and see if we can't help you with this. You've got 10 minutes. Please explain your points to us and justify them.

00:24:37 --> 00:25:35

John Oyston: The topic is vaping saves lives. First point, we just have to follow the science. It's incontrovertible that vaping is safer than cigarette smoking. For example, the Royal College of Physicians says the risk of vaping is unlikely to exceed 5% of the risk of smoking. Secondly, we looked at the issue of inequality. Smoking kills a lot of people, but it kills people from particular groups, particularly poor people, racial minorities, basically anybody who's from marginalized populations. So for a question of fairness, we have to encourage vaping to save lives. And finally, vaping saves money. Vaping is so much cheaper than cigarette smoking. People can get out of poverty by switching from one to another. And also, it's going to reduce health care costs.

00:25:35 --> 00:26:13

Heneage Mitchell: Very good. Right, that's a high benchmark to... Okay, there'll be a slight pause there. Anybody got any comments on those points? Good, bad, indifferent? Well, I mean... I'm sorry, is any one of these more important or more relevant than the other? They're North America. They're North America.

00:26:13 --> 00:26:32

Norbert Schmidt: Science is science, but it is ignored. But it's ignored in America and everywhere else.

00:26:32 --> 00:26:42

Heneage Mitchell: OK, moving on. Liberal Asians, please, please, someone come up and explain this to us, please.

00:26:51 --> 00:28:08

Attendee: All right, so our main three points. We are for vaping saves lives. And for our first point, we believe that with vaping, nobody dies. And it is when it is regulated properly, as nobody dies through vaping. And we believe that it reduces the number of deaths overall. We have to also ask the question, where is the evidence that people die from vaping? And is it fair to actually blame vape as it is recently introduced? And the next point is about how vaping actually betters our lives in terms of in our lifestyle when you introduce more flavors and it actually has a better quality. better compared actually to cigarettes. You have many flavors and it is much more easier to use compared to conventional cigarettes. And finally, our third point, we believe that vaping should be subsidized and that everyone will be able to receive one for free. So that is all that we have.

00:28:16 --> 00:28:28

Heneage Mitchell: Okay, where are we now? We're now looking for Europe.

00:28:28 --> 00:29:29

Ondrej Koumal: Europe liberals. So this is a contribution from the European League of Socialist Parties, what we believe would work. It's actually what our predecessors have said already, right? So you have the reduction in healthcare costs, which results in increase in quality of longer life, as well as in economic benefits, right? Because people, if they live longer, they can economically contribute a longer reduction in inequality, I think this was mentioned every single time, and I think the only one that I have not seen mentioned that we discussed was really cleaner environment for people around people who currently still smoke, right? So not necessarily rolling back smoking bans, but people still smoke at home, so people who are, of course, those who smoke, vulnerable, lower socioeconomic social housing, they smoke right there. So I think that if they don't, I think it positively affects people around them. So that's our contribution.

00:29:38 --> 00:29:43

Heneage Mitchell: Good. Where are we? Okay. Calling on Asia Conservatives. You're going to have to please play it back to me afterwards.

00:30:03 --> 00:31:18

Attendee: So supporting the message vaping saves lives have several benefits for the government, industry and society as well. So currently we have three. The first one is the government will spend less on health because vaping maybe, yes, has less health impact compared to the cigarettes. So if everyone switch from the cigarettes, maybe, yeah, the government, the spend of the government on the health will decrease. So the second point is if many people start using the vaping products, maybe the industry has more sales. revenues, so the government tax on the revenue will also increase. So maybe many people will get richer, I think. And the third one, if the government, sorry, industry or company has more revenues, maybe industry can make more jobs. So it's good for the society as well. That's it.

00:31:18 --> 00:32:17

Heneage Mitchell: Thank you. Right. I believe we're just waiting for one more. I haven't heard the U.S. conservatives. Yes, we did. And they haven't written anything down. They can't write. Yeah, they haven't been educated. Yeah, they're that dumb. Yeah. Tell us your points. Tell us your points. I mean, I know it's all hidden. I mean, isn't this so absolutely typical of the U.S. Republican Party? I mean, what's your evidence? Yeah. Seriously, three points, please. It says Euro. This sounds like an excuse to me. U.S. Liberal.

00:32:17 --> 00:32:18

Atakan Befrits: We're in trouble.

00:32:22 --> 00:32:32

Heneage Mitchell: Who? Oh, it's Europe and North America. You've finally understood. Okay, right. All right. Okay.

00:32:32 --> 00:32:32

Atakan Befrits: What's on the back?

00:32:39 --> 00:32:47

Heneage Mitchell: Personal choice and autonomy, which is usually... This is Europe right-wing, by the way, so go ahead, Atakan. Excellent representative, I have to say.

00:32:47 --> 00:33:59

Atakan Befrits: Right-wingers in general, I would say. Tax cuts, possible tax cuts, with personal choice and autonomy as hugely resonating with politicians, family values, is it doesn't really connect, but it always resonates every single time with conservatives. Save the parents and you save the children, basically. Healthier parents, you have better livelihoods, better education for kids, so forth and so on. And that heavy taxation is over-regulating in general, and that's a good bulwark to stop where we're at at the moment. And global leadership, I think that was a US contribution. something in translation and adopting a leading national position basically you know grabbing a point that nobody else really wants to touch because it's toxic and then running with it and making it a

00:34:14 --> 00:36:15

Heneage Mitchell: One, two, three, four, five, six pieces of paper. Liberal, liberal, liberal. Conservative, conservative. I was talking to myself. OK. So I now have, it seems like two liberals. Is that right? Two, just two? And three conservatives. So now what we're going to do is we're going to write each group a press release that includes this message and the points to couch them in. Sounds pretty straightforward, right? You can basically write it down or memorize it as you wish, but one of you needs to come up here and present it to the rest of us so we can evaluate it. Right, so very simple. I'm just going to give you your forms back and you collectively in your groups write, I've given you pens, write on the back, there's paper, write a press statement that reflects the main message and the supportive messages. So I'm now going to hand these out to the respective groups. Europe, over here. You're now conservative, Europe. Asia, liberals, you're now conservative. You know what's coming here, don't you? Europe and North America apparently. Conservatives? You're now liberals. Asia liberals?

00:36:15 --> 00:36:17

Norbert Schmidt: Wait a minute.

00:36:17 --> 00:38:01

Heneage Mitchell: I only have one Asian. Hold on, which one have you got? You've got Asia... So you've got the wrong one from them, right? That's yours. Okay, that's yours. Oh no, this is yours. This is from ASA. Wait, is that Asia? No, that's US. Sorry, okay. Right. Okay, Republican fellows. Yes? You're switching. You're writing the left wing now. There you go. So you now have, let's say, ten minutes. to write a press release now reflecting the other side than what you discussed? All of us, right? Why are we doing this? Because you have to put yourself in the shoes of the people that you're talking to, okay? Whatever your leanings are, you're not trying to sell your leanings, you're trying to sell this message using their leanings. So if you understand their leanings, and you've now been given an indication of what they may be, you should be able to craft something that includes the message and trigger points. Okay? Any questions? Ten minutes. Go. You have to flip your... Yeah, so I'm the... Please step forward. You're the star thing.

00:38:16 --> 00:38:17

Attendee: Star-Stangled Banner.

00:38:17 --> 00:38:23

Heneage Mitchell: Please introduce which demographic you're approaching, where you're from, and blah blah blah.

00:38:23 --> 00:39:58

Attendee: The ones who won the election, apparently. No, that's not clear enough. Exactly. Not according to our fearless leader, but anyway. So conservative going to liberal. So I basically got the sheet from the liberal side. I tore it up and rewrote it. But anyway, just kidding. So if to summarize the position of the liberal sheet that I got is so the press release would be given the increased disparity, both from a mental health opportunity aspect as well as income, we really need to put government funding to follow the science. So where the science takes us, that's great. And if we look at the World College of Physicians in London that have showed initial, of course, as an American, I would say initial because we will bring the actual data. Showed 95% reduction compared to combustible cigarettes. Basically, what we need to do is to further put our money into healthcare expenditure simply because we do want to lower, at the end of the day, the amount of money that we would need to spend on above-mentioned healthcare. given the smoking epidemic that we have in the US, and that is now generating, because of all those alternative, potentially, due to the alternative products, the next generation of those who would be our patients, if I'm a doctor for that matter. Especially with youth focus based on our trajectory.

00:39:58 --> 00:40:47

Heneage Mitchell: That would be it. That would be it? Yeah. Any comments or criticisms? I've got one. You didn't mention vaping saves lives anywhere in that presentation. Rule number one, when you're making a media release, make the headline, repeat it in the first sentence, or at least the first paragraph. Tell him what you're going to tell him, tell him, and then tell him what you told him. Okay, so that was an interesting presentation about a lot of values of the liberal diaspora in America. I'm not sure how it relates to vaping saves lives. Okay, next one please. Okay.

00:40:49 --> 00:41:59

Ondrej Koumal: So we used to be liberal, but we no longer are. So we will appeal to the basic instincts of an American Republican. So our headline is, following this WHO advice will seriously harm your health. Subheading, China funded WHO study recommends that vapors go back to smoking. What this report fails to tell you is that following this advice would kill more people, take money from the pockets of our taxpayers. I'm sorry, but we followed what you guys suggested. Destroy our families and our American way of living. Put our health care on a deathbed. Our country must stand against this attack on our freedoms conceived by unelected bureaucrats who are just serving the interests of the world's largest cigarette company. That's CMTC in China. So these are the bones of our press release.

00:42:03 --> 00:42:20

Heneage Mitchell: That's going straight onto Fox News tonight. Tonight. Yeah. Very, very good. I like that. Okay. Any lessons that we can learn from that? Any comments from anybody? Yeah. Did that resonate with you, sir? Not enough pictures.

00:42:20 --> 00:42:24

Norbert Schmidt: Not enough pictures.

00:42:24 --> 00:42:37

Heneage Mitchell: Next volunteer, please. Next victim. Volunteer. Victim. Yeah. I'm going to come and select one of you. They're still writing over there, look. And here, have you finished? Go for it.

00:42:51 --> 00:44:16

Attendee: Yeah, vaping saves lives. So if we create more opportunities for people by creating more flavors, more people are going to come on board and the vaping users, people who want to transit from smoking to the alternatives, we have more options and there will be more opportunities for them. And also, vaping should be subsidised, because when it is subsidised, it gives room for more people who do not really have the resources to, you know, to get it, to actually get it at either a low cost or for free. And this will be in line with our principle that there should be equality and also there should be opportunities and there should be opportunities for people wherever, no matter what their ideas or their no matter what their idea is all about. And finally, it is going to reduce the number of deaths, because more people have transited into vaping. So there will be low health risks. Thank you.

00:44:16 --> 00:44:34

Heneage Mitchell: Have you finished over there yet? Are we ready to go? Is anybody other than still waiting here? That's what I thought. Have you actually finished there at a time?

00:44:34 --> 00:44:34

Attendee: Never.

00:44:34 --> 00:44:40

Heneage Mitchell: Never. Okay, Asia. Hello. This is Asia right wing, ladies and gentlemen.

00:44:47 --> 00:46:16

Attendee: Right wing. So we are the more conservative part of Team Asia. So our title, Living in the Vaping World, Vaping Saves Lives. We, the Asia team, believe that vaping saves lives. The government currently spends an estimate of about 70% annually on healthcare expenditure for non-communicable diseases. And we believe that when vaping is made available for the open public, the government is able to spend less on healthcare, as vaping is scientifically proven to reduce the number of deaths and smoking-related diseases. At the same time, vaping eliminates secondary smokers as well. Now, secondly, we believe that if the government reduces taxes on vaping products, it will ultimately make vaping products legally available. This would not only reduce the expenditure of a common person to purchase the vaping products, but at the same time, not reduce the taxes that the government earns from it. And thus, the public will have access to these less harmful alternatives. The vaping industry at the same time creates more job opportunities, not just for vape manufacturers, but also the downstream, including logistics, packaging, and so on. So to conclude, we from Team Asia believe that vaping saves lives, at the same time creates a better global future for the economy of the country. Thank you.

00:46:16 --> 00:46:17

Heneage Mitchell: I thought that was pretty good.

00:46:22 --> 00:47:07

Atakan Befrits: Where did that come from? Right. Okay, so liberal Europeans. Global and European consumer advocacy urges liberal EU members of parliament to adopt THR and to discard the BECA, which is the European beating cancer plan, and to discard the BECA in current form intending to heavily restrict attractivity of vaping and THR. Lower smoking, even through THR, will lower health costs for established and would-be smokers. A BECCA rethought will protect

00:47:13 --> 00:47:14

Heneage Mitchell: Your stomach.

00:47:14 --> 00:47:48

Atakan Befrits: Oh, that. Will protect youth considerably more than the current BECA that also was adopted on the 2040 premise, when in fact 2065, 2080 is the more likely target timeline given current smokers need to die before change can actually happen. The easiest route to better health equality in tobacco is nobody smoking, rich or poor.

00:47:48 --> 00:49:39

Heneage Mitchell: And there we have it. Okay, so we've now had, all of us, the opportunity to look into both sides, I mean there's obviously more than, but two principal demographics in our respective countries and we've come up with the couching messages. As I said earlier, the most important lesson I hope that everybody takes away from here is you cannot communicate effectively unless you put yourself in the shoes of the people that you're trying to talk to. If you can do that, you're going to go forward. If you can't, you're not. So, I hope this has been a useful seminar. Before we close it, I would just like to thank Ruth very much for her time. I'd like to thank our brilliant guys over here who just put this together in no time at all. And I'd particularly like to thank all of you, because without us, we're screwed. With us, and with the tools that we have, which are fairly minimal, but they come from here, from here, and we all share it, This makes us so powerful. So again, thank you very much. And before we close, I'd just like to congratulate Team Europe. because that was an excellent presentation as far as I'm concerned, whether you agree with me or not. But all of you did really, really well, because I did kind of twist you up there by switching it over. Well done. I hope this was a useful, functional workshop. And again, thank you very much. And I hope to see you all on Friday at the FactAsia party. Thank you.